…the name of the person associated events in Kiev in the fall of 2013 and winter of 2014, and he is still, and again ask yourself the question, what would have happened if he was given other orders, have made other decisions.
Vitaly Zakharchenko former Minister of internal Affairs of Ukraine the General of internal service, army General, candidate of Sciences in public administration, doctor of economic Sciences.
Could he then change the course of history? But someone else could? How to trace the causal relationships leading to the destruction of States, and where begins the point of no return all that is happening in the world today?
America beats a glass of expensive boutiques and flips the car.
torn Europe to the barricades.
the Donetsk and Lugansk miners sitting in the mine, demanding payment of wages for the new rulers. Lukashenko announces upcoming changes in the Belarusian Constitution.
the coup d’etat and revolution — what motivates them? The demands of the masses? The desire of elites? Force majeure?
What better way to stop the crowd using force and weapons, or retreat may price even more future blood?
it Seems that the whole world once went crazy, the balance collapses in all the border, so tense situation in politics, economy, society, as now, was not for a long time.
actually, no. Something similar happened in 2014 — in an individual country, with the name still existing on the map.
Ukraine — as a distorting mirror of history, its special thorny path.
“At some point I realized that I wanted not just as many to describe the tragic events of autumn-winter 2013-2014-th, and feel a burning need to look beyond the horizon… to Understand the essence of what is happening, to understand the covert and overt mechanisms that pushed our state and nation to the abyss of chaos and civil war…” — so begin the memoirs of former interior Minister of Ukraine Vitaliy Zakharchenko.
“It was controlled from outside the integrated disruptive technology that neither I nor anyone else could see as a whole… the Individual components of the episodes… Just now when we are experiencing the consequences of the Ukrainian tragedy, it is possible to complete the mosaic, to resist such destructive processes that are started, without exaggeration, around the world.”
When we spoke with Vitaliy Zakharchenko, in America, only mass protests began, and neither he, nor I, did not know where it all might lead. And now, frankly, I do not know…
the Cycle of constitutions
— Say, because many of the events in Ukraine began including with the change of the Constitution?
— the Constitution of Ukraine has changed several times. Under Kuchma, Yushchenko, Yanukovych then again vernulas�� one that was under Kuchma and Poroshenko — Yushchenko’s. By 2014 we lived under a presidential-parliamentary Republic. It was a fundamental characteristic: the head of state had the right personally to appoint security officers. Under President Yushchenko, such powers were limited to the “orange revolution” in 2004. In 2010 initiated the session of the constitutional court, which declared illegal the presidential transition to curtail the rights of the Constitution of 2005 year and returned to the Basic law of 1996. After the coup of 2014, Poroshenko has formally restored a presidential-parliamentary government and the Constitution 2005. However, this did not prevent him to reign as usurper. So in this case, the letter of the law absolutely does not solve anything… Zelensky now also lives on Yushchenko’s Constitution.
— And that the Ukrainian people? He didn’t care?
— When the media are in the hands of certain persons, and they impose the agenda. To citizens it explains what is best for them. Any so-called revolution is just technology. The Ukraine disaster began with a seemingly simple and harmless as if ideas that were proposed, the most sad is accepted in most of society. It depends on the power of the state. But at the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union itself States in the Ukraine was not. Yes, on the ruins of the Soviet Union politicians tried to form some fatal national ideas. First: Ukraine is not Russia, and something new, with its special destiny. Second — Ukraine is anti-Russia, so the reason for our continued existence is the struggle with Russia. And finally, third: “Ukrop — TSE Europe” foreigners will help us.
the Rubicon was passed in 2004, when the most revealing system of governance in Ukraine was destroyed, and much of what happened ten years later, originates from there.
what about the people?
What people? Poor people with a fledgling middle class, with the oligarchic clans that emerged under Kuchma. Akhmetov, Kolomoisky, Pinchuk, Tymoshenko, Poroshenko subsequently. The group took control of the basic means of production, gained access to political institutions of governance, all parties were built as appendages to industrial-financial groups… And people also had to earn at least something… So, in particular, a mechanism has been established capitalization rallies. Morning to the people out with flags of BYUT, in the evening changed them with new ones.
— Really all did not care where the country is heading?
— but somehow it all quickly realized that this is a true earnings. In Ukraine there is a stable market sales of such services. It has become a trend to live on politics. Someone received billions, someone on it… But at the top everything was unchanged.
— are You a youth served in the militia, that is always been in power. And as a result became Minister of internal Affairs of Ukraine.
For me the power remained primarily a responsibility for the lives of others. The head of the interior Ministry I began in November 2011 and stayed in this position until February 21, 2014-year (last month was “acting”. the Auth.) My PhD thesis was reform of the civil service of Ukraine. A major reform of the state — in my view to the corner to put the interests of the person, protection of the rights and freedoms of citizens.
do you Believe that to prevent the events on the Maidan could police reform?
— No, no institutional reform can prevent such events. We found it extremely difficult to protect public order, in accordance with the applicable law of that time. Our proposals for necessary changes (for example, the adoption of the Law on the procedure for holding peaceful demonstrations, the Law on the procedure of activities on the territory of Ukraine NGO) by the Verkhovna Rada ignored. In addition there was a certain disunity of the security agencies. Some of them were under the obvious influence of the oligarchs and their groupings.
In December 2013, before the major bloody events, law enforcement has a real opportunity not only to investigate the case on the coup attempt, but to detain its main organizers. Then the main Directorate of the interior Ministry in Kyiv has registered the materials in eRDR (unified register of pre-trial investigation), and referred them for investigation of the SBU. However, the security Service of Ukraine “successfully” terminated.
At the same time the MPs actually organized the Maidan and escape responsibility, became his official “roof”. Under their cover, the barricades were imported everything from tires and wood to alcohol, drugs and weapons. Yanukovych believed that control of the situation in the Verkhovna Rada, although it was not so. Oligarchic groups have become fully on the side of the protesters. Media supported the Maidan. Society has formed a position that law enforcement agencies commit illegal actions against peaceful demonstrators.
Berkut: the point of no return
— whether it was to prevent street clashes?
— the protest was planned for 2015 for the presidential election. But events began to unfold too rapidly… was it Possible to change something to prevent it? Only through the investigation of the criminal case, which, as I said, it was discontinued. But political decisions was not born. Police until the last byla is ready to perform its task of protecting public order. We were detained violators made protocols, and transmit the materials to the courts. Then, the Verkhovna Rada adopted three laws on Amnesty, but the opposition once again took responsibility that everything will go peacefully, and the same detainees have returned to the barricades. Eventually the call came to the Maidan about half a million peaceful citizens of Kiev. All mixed up. Radicals, children, women, old ladies, representatives of the Church.
— That is, mass arrests were no longer possible?
In 2014 we had the right to detain only three hours, for anything longer, without justification, attacked criminal liability for the law enforcement officials. And where to place such a crowd of people, how many policemen to protect them?
— Well, random participants should chide and release, and the ringleaders to draw.
Only to criminal liability for mass riots, hooliganism, bodily injury of varying severity to the police, the interior Ministry has attracted more than 2.5 thousand people. Now in America, gangs are attacking the streets. How to find out who’s the leader and who is passing by, just gave up a Molotov cocktail and he threw it through a storefront window… Or worse — a COP. All have criminal. Today the number of such “accidental” passers — by- ten, and tomorrow — a hundred, a thousand… Ask a question post-Maidan government in Ukraine, where are the videos from the Maidan, which recorded the information of who and what they were doing? Surveillance cameras after the Euro 2012 on the streets was enough.
Radicals was out for blood?
— February 18, when it started the blatant killing of policemen and civilian militiamen were forced to take decisive action to push the radicals to the Maidan, on February 19 the radicals were ready to run… But, alas, no command from above to go to the end of the “Golden Eagle”, was not followed. On the question of why I didn’t give this command, not take responsibility, I will say this: I gave it away. I saw what was happening an armed coup, in these circumstances, given the potential for mass casualties, the use of force is justified at any level. But my decision to clean up the area, apparently, was not enough.
Question — whether it was specpol-division “Berkut” to use weapons or not — is still one of the cornerstones in the history of the square.
— the Right to use military weapons in accordance with the law entrusted to direct commanders and fighters, depending on the specific circumstances. My question, why not use the weapon for neutralisation of criminals, after the first victims were the reports that will setü specifically shooting “anti-snipers” failed. As far as I know, for the same reason had not used the weapon and the unit “alpha” security service of Ukraine. I remember well the number of weapons issued in the night from 20 to 21 February 2014. I specifically went on television that we have removed from the streets of the representatives of internal Affairs bodies, and put them all in the administrative building and gave military Arsenal, allowing, in case of an attack, to act in accordance with the law. But it was already the 21st of February! That night was achieved the political compromise with the participation and under the guarantee of their fulfilment by foreign diplomats. However, the protocols were broken in the morning. The guarantors were silent, when from the stage of Maidan urged the protesters to go to the armed assault on the government district. Although all was clear the outcome of such a storm.
What did that mean in reality?
— one hundred thousandth of the crowd led to the government quarter, where the units of the interior Ministry with military weapons, moreover, by law, they could open fire while trying to storm. Everyone knew it and the organizers of the Maidan, but they needed more blood.
no matter What we did, all our actions could be used as provocations.
Realizing this, I suggested Yanukovych to choose though not the best, but the only possible option to escape from this trap, to avoid huge casualties in the center of Kiev. I offered to withdraw all our forces, limiting independence, including internal forces in the Donbass.
— And on whose side was the West?
West was fun to draw Ukraine into a serious internal opposition. On the side of the Maidan were openly made by very powerful forces, foreign diplomats, representatives of various international religious confessions, representatives of security services, security services and legal service of the Ukrainian oligarchs, even foreign mercenaries from the PMC. The issue is not that we have failed, and how we even lasted three months.
— And Russia? Whose side was she?
— I think from a political point of view, Putin was on the side of Yanukovych, but not in the sense that it wanted to present to his opponents. Although Yanukovych himself, no doubt, sincerely wished that our country remains politically independent from the West and from Russia. How this goal was achievable… At that time all the other forces geopolitically, Ukraine was considered only in the context of the fight against Russia. In other respects interesting it was. I was convinced then and continue to defend their point of view now — Russia has not just declined to join in the conflict, but also to participate in the acute phase.
—In the Crimea or in the Donbass?
— Nno, it was supposed to be held in Kiev. In any case, Russia would not remain indifferent. But not to influence the course of Ukrainian events, provided that they are affected absolutely every aspect, it is, of course, could not.
“We were taken to helicopters with red stars”
Why you invited Yanukovych to retreat to the Donbass?
— Yes, it was my suggestion, all law enforcement officers who were involved on the Maidan, to build a column and organised, with weapons and equipment, to withdraw to Donetsk. Yanukovych remained the legitimate President, he had also to arrive there, to negotiate, to negotiate, to seek a political solution out of the crisis. There are our supporters, our core constituency.
And Yanukovych agreed to it?
— Yanukovych agreed. I gave the order for the withdrawal of troops in Donbass. He had the order to duplicate. March from Kiev to Donetsk — more than 600 kilometers. The columns were taken out the commander of the EXPLOSIVES and the chief of the Kiev Central Board. I was nominated first. While riding, turned off all means of communication, I have been declared wanted as “bloody Minister.” We raced in the direction of Borispol through all the barricades. I asked the guys in any case not to use weapons of war, I was armed and if necessary was ready to use it. But to our great surprise, the traffic’s. Only approaching Donetsk, I finally turned on the phone and dialed the chief of the Kiev militia and commander of internal troops. Finally answered the Deputy. My question is, how is the withdrawal of troops to Donetsk, he said all came back to Kiev on his orders. Because radicals from the Maidan came and promised to burn their control. I roughly said to him then… Then a call from the security service of the President, they say that Viktor Yanukovych is looking for you, handed the phone: “where are you? You the Verkhovna Rada just released from a post”. I told him: “You hear?! Troops came to the Donbass! What are the instructions?!” There was hope that the President understands what to do next. “Did you… With Sasha in Donetsk call,” and hung up. Sasha’s son, Alexander Yanukovych. I realized that my game was expelled. Much later, Yanukovych admitted that he cancelled the order and have deployed troops after a call to Vice President Biden, so my plan was not to be fulfilled.
— Yes, from the window of his office was a square of Taras Shevchenko, where young radicals hang out with football fans club “Shakhtar”, rallied and shouted: “Vlad get out! (Power off!)” And I thought crazy… When Yanukovych in a roundabout way arrived in Donetsk, we met in the Botanical garden, it’s me��where he lived Renat Akhmetov. Remember, go inside, stand Akhmetov, Viktor Yanukovych, last calmly said: “In General, you need to move to Russia, take a Pshonka and Klyuev”.
For me it was a shock. In my fantasy, was to begin something like a popular uprising, Akhmetov, and Yanukovych had to raise the people in the Donbass. How is it in Russia? Then, after reaching Mariupol secret paths, we planned how we were going to cross the border: I, the attorney General and head of the presidential administration. All the former.
had Dinner last night. It is unclear what awaits tomorrow. On the TV show the box through the window to hear over the sea flying a helicopter. One way to another. Oh, I think Viktor Yanukovych took…
And fell asleep. There’s a sudden knock at the door. Urgently sit in the cars and raced along the coast of the Azov sea. We were already there waiting for helicopters with red stars. The path now was one. I decided my fate…
— Keep a grudge against the former chief? Although, maybe not Yanukovich run away from Kiev, stay, even at the cost of his death or imprisonment — whoever comes to power then it would be illegitimate. But acting Ukrainian President then, sorry, chickened out. This is my personal subjective opinion.
— No, I do not consider Yanukovych a coward. Yes, then certain emotions from some of his actions were. But to say that he, to save his life, fled to Russia, can not. I think he was just sure I’d be able to beat all of its rivals. Here are his words verbatim: “I know what I’m doing”. And this, in my opinion, was his primary miscalculation. The main problem was that he was not thinking about the possible consequences of their actions for the state. And you took me not him. It was decided by a very different President…
So who are you now — Russian or Ukrainian?
Good question. But I answered it in 16 years when he went to get a passport. Back home and say. “Mom, they asked: what nationality in the passport record? And I wrote “Ukrainian”. Mom laughed: “That’s strange… I am from Belgorod region, mother’s maiden name Sidorova, your father — from Leningrad. Both he and I — Russian. And you Ukrainian”. “Mom, I’m live in Ukraine!” That is, national identification for my generation was geographic, not ethnic, and certainly not ideological. In 2015, I received a new Russian passport, no nationality.
Servant without people
it does Not hurt to see what has been going on for six years in the Donbass? And that maybe your failed forced March could change in the future?
— of Course, I cannot remain indifferent to what is happening in the Donbas. I’m sure, grant Iankovitch our agreements and what is happening now could have been avoided. You know, one time I defended the position that Donbass should be at least the Federal region of Ukraine, but the farther, the more clearly understand that this is impossible. After killed so many of my countrymen, friends… there can be only one return — a radical change of the Ukrainian authorities. With regard to the Crimea, in fact Ukraine has lost the Peninsula, and the right to the people who live here. For me it is clear that the partition of the country began on the Maidan in 2014, Ukraine has long been torn mentally, and not just geographically.
— How do you estimate interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who came after you and has already gone through two presidents, survived after Poroshenko and remained with Zelensky, although it would seem?..
I don’t want to discuss this figure and the problem is not Avakov, as in the oligarchic system that survived independence and continues to exist. Yet Avakov best, as he performs the task set before him, he is and will be. Policy in Ukraine, as I perceive it, still not there. Be called politics that Zelensky became President — not. Just 73% of the population was once again deceived by technology. Created and rasparenny way acting in an honest “servant of the people”, it is clear that in the end, the dividends received by those who created it and the beneficiaries of the Maidan.