In an interview with TASS Deputy head of the presidential administration of the Russian Federation shared their impressions from contacts with our Ukrainian partners, said that Moscow has no "red lines" and Russia does not lose hope for a peaceful political settlement in the Donbass.
a Dmitry Kozak, will begin, perhaps, with a bit of philosophical question. For several months now (after appointment to the post of Deputy head of the presidential administration of the Russian Federation) you communicate closely with our Ukrainian partners. Your feelings on these first contacts? Is there any prospect of a political settlement of the conflict in the Donbass? In your opinion, the President of Ukraine Vladimir Zelensky, his team — they negotiability, for example, compared to their predecessors?
— I don’t want and can’t give any assessment, including to assess the negotiability of the new team. With the previous team I interacted.
Regarding the negotiability I would like to mention only the following. Until most recently, until about the beginning of March was the cautious hope of a constructive open dialogue on all issues of settlement of the conflict. But in recent months, these hopes dissipated quite rapidly.
I must say, we are sensitive to what our colleagues from Kiev it is difficult enough to make decisions in those domestic political conditions in which they find themselves today. We see that any attempt to make a constructive decision for the implementation of the Minsk agreements cause violent obstruction of their political opponents, including their predecessors, who are the co-authors of the Minsk agreements.
The turning point was the meeting of the contact group on 11 March this year, when the Ukrainian colleagues demonstrated a constructive approach and with the participation of representatives of the Donbass, the OSCE and the Russian Federation, agreements were reached on how to move the negotiation process with the zero mark. The next day the meeting of the contact group were subjected to powerful pressure. Shares bordering with the riots. After the constructive attitude of the representatives of Ukraine have radically changed. Almost the opposite.
Therefore, answering the first question about the prospects for a political settlement — can only say one thing: today all in a defining measure depends on the position of the primary beneficiary of the settlement — most, in fact, of Ukraine.
I just want to note that for residents of Donbass and for all citizens of Ukraine this question is not philosophical. For them it is a matter of survival. This is the truth, which requires a very specific answer. If the President’s team Zelensky will maintain consistent, direct and honest dialogue with Donb��Sam, the prospect of resolving the conflict there. And in a relatively short time. If the position is the same as it is quite openly demonstrated in recent months, the negotiations just to drag them and do not agree — it is a direct path to the freezing of the conflict for many years.
a — just on the meeting of the contact group on settlement in the East of Ukraine on 11 March discussed the idea of establishing an Advisory Board within the political sub-group for dialogue between official Kyiv and representatives of the so-called Individual regions of Donetsk and Lugansk regions (ORDO)? Whose idea was it? What it eventually became? She died?
— Because at that time in the contact group, despite the insistence of the Donbass, the political aspects of the conflict settlement were discussed even in the first approximation, we suggested to form an Advisory Board as a platform, if you want it as an excuse to begin the discussion at least at a societal level, these basic questions of conflict resolution. And here’s a seemingly very innocent idea that allows, at least in some form to start the conversation the next day met in Kiev fierce resistance. Representatives of Ukraine, who signed a Protocol of intent to create such a Council, accused of treason and almost filed criminal charges. They were accused of treason due to the fact that this decision allegedly recognizes the international personality of the Donbass republics.
Such accusations were made, including from the party of former President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko that the Minsk agreements, which actually legalized the dialogue with representatives of Donbass. No international personality, and dialogue. Absolutely absurd situation. In the end, as part of the political and legal aspects of conflict resolution until now, the process is essentially the same zero. Meaningful sentences from Ukraine on political conflict settlement and the procedure for their coordination with the representatives of Donbass were reported. The idea of creating an Advisory Council or any alternative mechanism for dialogue never came back. If you don’t count and not clearly defined anecdotal the proposal to appoint the decision of the Ukrainian authorities and Donbass representatives with the appointed individuals to lead the discussion on the settlement of the conflict.
a — Do it after this story Kiev actively began to assert some of its “red lines” in the negotiations, which they are not willing to cross. And does Russia have its "red lines" and what are they? Is it possible for Moscow in General, the compromise in this question?
— No "red lines" of the Russian Federation no. The representatives of Russia in the Contact group have a simple and unambiguous Directive to support any agreements that are reached between the Donbass and Ukraine to prevent escalation and a peaceful political settlement of the conflict. Any.
"Red lines" our Kiev colleagues are unknown until the end. They tend often to formulate its position Aesopian language. One of the lines you can recognize — in any case not to engage in dialogue with any representatives ORDO. But this "red line" goes beyond the “red lines” of the Minsk agreements, which clearly prescribe this dialogue.
We are witnessing an absurd situation, when all political statements from the top leadership of Ukraine, including in the outcome documents of the last "Norman" summit in Paris, under which stands the signature of President Vladimir Zelensky, invariably it is noted that alternative to the Minsk agreements for the settlement of the conflict, and then stated that there are some "red lines" that do not allow to perform the same the Minsk agreement.
Another interesting story happened in early June. After the next meeting of the Contact group was made public the final report in which from the Ukrainian crisis until June 19 to clearly define my position on the Minsk agreements precisely because of that most of these statements that this document is not for Kiev binding. Ukraine eventually explained?
This event has the same properties as the Ukrainian "red lines". This is one of the key underlying impediments to the effectiveness of the Minsk, and the channel negotiation processes.
Punctually of the various officials of Ukraine made a different kind of conflicting, often contradictory statements.
Indeed, in the debate on the draft regulation of the Contact group, Deputy head of the Ukrainian delegation in the contact group had expressed the position that the Complex of measures on implementation of Minsk agreements is not obligatory for Ukraine, because he was "approved", not "approved" by the UN Security Council. After the representatives of Donbass tried to fix and promulgate this position in the minutes of the meeting at the next meeting the same Deputy Chairman of the Ukrainian delegation disavowed his statement.
Recently we had the opportunity to hear many other statements. For example, the fact that the Minsk agreement does not need to resolve the conflict, but only to maintain sanctions against Russia. It constantly desorientiert other participants in the negotiation process and is not conducive to constructive work��. All the participants of the contact group and representatives of Donbass, and the Russian Federation, and the OSCE, and Ukraine — are forced to spend considerable time on finding the true position of Ukraine.
Revealing are the results of our latest Berlin meeting, when we see only attempts to save, as they say colleagues, "diplomatic ambiguity" or "constructive ambiguity". Already this terminology has appeared, which leads to the fact that no decision — neither in political matters, nor humanitarian, nor the security issues.
But time is relentless. Conflict for six years. Useless, fruitless lengthy negotiations only increase the gap between the residents of Donbass and the Ukrainian authorities. Obviously, over time to shorten it will be more difficult.
In recent times, including the recent Berlin meeting, we have repeatedly urged colleagues to be more open: not considered necessary or is unable for whatever reason to implement any obligations, please report it directly. But not fooling the world about its commitment to the Minsk agreements or, for example, "a comprehensive, complete and permanent ceasefire".
— Statements reach the point that the President Zelenskaya puts the timing of the implementation of the Minsk agreements. "If we have a year will not achieve anything, then all will come out of them," he says. And what will the reaction of Moscow? The head of the "Union of Donbass volunteers" Alexander Boroday at the party Congress, "homeland" said Saturday that the DNI and LC in a relatively short period of time will de jure become part of Russia, to join the Russian Federation. What do you think, how realistic is such a scenario, if Kiev is out of the Minsk agreements?
First, relative to the target objectives for the coming year, which the Ukrainian political leadership puts itself in front of him. Obviously, since all these tasks are the subject of negotiations in the Minsk and Normandy formats, all negotiators need to understand what kind of results is it. What is the ultimate goal of Ukraine? Under what conditions and through what mechanisms, according to the Ukrainian colleagues, these problems can be solved? I assure you that so far, despite more than five years of negotiations, no one has complete clarity on these issues is not. What is meant by the President of Ukraine under the plans "B", "C", we also do not know.
Today guess what secret plan Ukrainian colleagues, does not make sense. Ukraine’s withdrawal from the Minsk agreements for everyone, of course, will be an extraordinary event. But it will be a political event, not a state of emergency, natural or manmade, where n��wives prepared a detailed plan of action for the elimination of the consequences of such a situation. From a political point of view, we’ll be ready for any eventuality.
Second, with respect to various statements by political figures and public organizations about the possibilities and prospects of joining of the Donbass to the Russian Federation. It is the opinion solely of the authors of these statements. At the state level questions in such a setting, even in the first approximation, was never discussed. We do not lose hope for a peaceful political settlement of the conflict. We are vitally interested in it. Even the frozen conflict in the South-Western borders of the Russian Federation absolutely not needed.
a — But there is also the fixation in the Ukrainian legislation on an ongoing basis of the special status of Separate districts of Donetsk and Lugansk regions, as required by the Minsk agreement. On the day of your meeting in Berlin, Der Spiegel published an article citing a working paper of the Russian delegation, according to which the brought strict requirements to Kiev to submit the draft legislation by 6 July. Is it really so? What’s going on with the political aspect of the settlement?
The most complex situation in the political sphere. Not a requirement, not an ultimatum and offer to July 6, to the next meeting of the contact group to submit a draft law on amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine on decentralization was based on information from the Ukrainian colleagues about the fact that this document is almost ready and to the next meeting of the contact group should be submitted. Without amendments to be made to the Constitution of Ukraine in terms of decentralization, it is impossible to discuss are on the table of negotiations in the contact group, the draft laws on the special status.
Around special status and decentralization there is much abstract discussion. For example, Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine Oleksii Reznikov, he was the first Deputy head of the Ukrainian delegation in the contact group said that the special status of Donbass does not need Donbass can enjoy the fruits of the country’s decentralization. But none of this decentralization, these amendments have not seen – either in Donbas or the rest of Ukraine. In the end, it can be assumed that decentralization would be so radical and appealing that the Donbass will say that he is ready to live in this legal field, they need not have a special status. But this should at least present a document about this reform, and not to keep it as a mystery for the family seals.
a — However, the Ukrainian side continues to publicly make encouraging statements that the talks made progress, the meeting was held choirOsho and in August, a new summit of leaders "Norman Quartet". How can you explain this?
More and more I suspect that the laws of Ukrainian political genre — to demonstrate success, wishful thinking. No reason to hold a new summit today, and when the current position of Ukraine in the foreseeable future just yet. The summit can only be provided if both of the decisions of previous summits. As of today, none of the agreements of the Paris summit are not met.
a — How long all these endless negotiations can continue? How much further Russia is prepared to debate without result? Or is it in some point will have to Bang his fist on the table?
— This desire does sometimes occur. Many hours of fruitless negotiations often resemble theater of the absurd.
But as under the Minsk agreements the Russian Federation is one of the participants of the contact group, we and in these circumstances will do everything to peacefully bring an end to the conflict near our borders. The only basis for this are the Minsk agreements. Attempts to come up with a new resolution instruments contain a real danger to push the resolution of the conflict for many years.
Interviewed By Alexander Kopnov
