The number of immigrants in Germany is increasing massively – and with it the public debate. “Dispute over immigration: is Germany missing out on its future?” was the topic of the “hard but fair” program on Monday evening. It became particularly heated between Labor Minister Heil and Bavaria’s Interior Minister Herrmann.

10:13 p.m .: In this debate you need a “bridge and no explosives”, says Steingart. And he expects someone who wants to be chancellor not to bring any explosives with them on talk shows. Steingart is teasing CDU leader Merz, who spoke of “little pashas” to Markus Lanz last week. This concludes the talk show for this Monday. Thank you for reading along!

10:10 p.m .: “I’m a Lower Saxony cold blood, but I’m passionate about this,” says Heil about the double pass, which he strongly advocates. “We need more pragmatism in the CSU after all these decades.” Herrmann does not react.

10:08 p.m .: The nurses have to reach a B2 level in order to get a German professional license, according to Sartorius. But the authorities are too slow to recognize the language results, after which language is lost again, she notes.

10:05 p.m .: “Someone who wants a German passport must be able to speak the language,” says Herrmann. The group agrees. But there were no language offers for migrants 50 years ago, says Kaddor. “They had 50 years to learn our language,” counters Herrmann. The audience claps.

10:01 p.m .: 11.8 million foreigners live in Germany. 8.4 million people have been living here for more than five years. That fits with the traffic light plan to enable the German passport after five years.

9:58 p.m .: “You don’t need a German passport for everyday life, but if we continue to be referred to as blackheads or foreigners in society, then Turks think why they had to give up their citizenship,” says a protagonist from the clip. He has lived his whole life in Berlin-Kreuzberg. But in his environment he was often only perceived as a Turk. Now he wants the one-two – because he also wants to vote.

Surf tip: Official statistics – Germany: Number of foreigners and people with a migration background

9:55 p.m .: The debate is getting hotter: “In Bavaria, integration is successful, in Berlin and Bremen people only talk about it,” says Herrmann. Kaddor just shakes his head.

9:53 p.m .: “We are zero attractive as an immigration country,” Steingart hits the table. 1.1 million people would come to Germany every year, and 900,000 would leave again. This includes parts of his family. That must be significantly better.

9:51 p.m .: “I know so many who have dual citizenship. That doesn’t do any harm,” says Heil. His secretary also has a duplicate passport. “And there are no conflicts of loyalty either,” he just shakes his head at Herrmann’s argument. One must become more liberal in this regard.

9:48 p.m .: The CSU says that German citizenship should not be given away. “I don’t think the double or multiple pass is right,” says Herrmann. But why? “Because that’s not normal, they also have to decide where they live.” This comparison is limping, as can be seen on the faces of the other guests.

9:45 p.m .: So far it has taken eight years to get a German passport. The traffic light wants to shorten that to a five-year stay. “Citizenship is at the end of integration. But we have to modernize that,” says Heil. It is a requirement of fairness for people who live, work and pay taxes here. “We will not throw German passports around,” he emphasizes.

9:43 p.m .: In recent years, people from Syria have applied for and received the most naturalizations, says Herrmann. “Don’t pretend that naturalization isn’t possible,” he counters Kaddor’s criticism that the naturalization process is so bureaucratic.

9:40 p.m .: Heil does not directly address Herrmann’s criticism. However, the two agree on the point of deportation: “We have to deport the right people,” says Heil. But that mostly doesn’t happen.

9:37 p.m .: “The fact that you sort the law in such a way that people are first entitled to social assistance before they have a job is completely wrong,” Herrmann Heil addresses. He reacted rudely: “Now turn down the sound first, this is not a debate for slogans.”

9:34 p.m .: “We don’t want immigration into the social systems,” Heil clarifies. But what if they don’t find a job? If in doubt, you have to be deported, he says.

9:32 p.m .: A chance card should enable people to work in Germany for a year, suggests Heil. There are two points for sufficient language skills, three points for vocational training and three-year social systems and two points for people over 35 years of age.

9.30 p.m .: “How annoying is the German bureaucracy?” asks Klamroth. “Very annoying,” replies Sartorius. Nursing staff would all have to complete months of training again – although some of them received a master’s degree in their countries of origin. “The arrogance of the German education system has to go,” says Heil. For many skilled workers, renewed training is no longer necessary.

9:28 p.m .: You could only get a permanent residence permit after four years, they say. They need this permit in order to be able to buy an apartment in Germany. But that could soon go faster, says Klamroth.

9:26 p.m .: For the recognition of their training as a nurse, they had to complete another eight-month training course in Germany. Both now speak German at language level B2 (intermediate to advanced level).

9:24 p.m .: Klamroth speaks to two Iranian nurses who have been living and working in Germany for two years. In Sweden, significantly more money would have been needed for the integration period, they explain. That’s why it became Germany. They have struck lucky with the Asklepios clinics – they were able to sign their employment contract in Iran

9:21 p.m .: “A modern immigration law must reduce unnecessary bureaucracy,” says Heil. This also means that language certificates are graded for certain sectors. “We can also use an IT specialist from India with English.”

9:18 p.m .: The need for skilled workers is great in the economy, says Steingart. “But we need the right immigrants,” he says. Steingart emphasizes that if Germany wants to become more attractive as a high-quality immigration country, more living space must also be created.

9:16 p.m .: “We have been an immigration society for so long,” says Lamya Kaddor, domestic spokeswoman for the Greens. Every fourth person in Germany now has an immigration background. “In ten years, that’s maybe every second, every third,” says Kaddor. Asking for first names is therefore absurd, she teases the CDU.

9:14 p.m .: “No other federal state has integrated immigrants as successfully as Bavaria in the last ten years,” said the Bavarian Minister of the Interior Herrmann with a portion of personal responsibility. But there are still many things that need to be improved. The same applies, according to Heil: “Those who commit crimes in our country must then leave it again.”

9:13 p.m .: The hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees did not come primarily to integrate into the German labor market, even if many have now been integrated, says Heil. A comprehensive immigration law is to be passed in March, primarily to eliminate bureaucracy.

9:11 p.m .: From 2025, the baby boomers (under 1964) will retire, according to Hubertus Heil. By 2035, there could be a shortage of seven million workers if Germany does not pull out all the stops domestically. “It takes less bureaucracy for this,” says Heil.

9:08 p.m .: Astrid Sartorius, head of the “Foreign Acquisition Care” department at the Asklepios Kliniken, explains that TikTok is also used for advertising in the care sector. Most nurses are from the Philippines. Last year, Asklepios brought 1,000 foreign workers to Germany – from over 39 nations.

9:06 p.m .: The government will be able to act and fill the office competently, Heil promises. Klamroth now leads on to the topic of the show: Germany needs 400,000 more immigrants per year to compensate for the shortage of skilled workers. But how is that supposed to work?

9:05 p.m .: Journalist Gabor Steingart could imagine that Wolfgang Schmidt will take over the office. But nothing is certain. Then he taunts Lambrecht with regard to today’s program: “The shortage of skilled workers has reached the federal government. A bit of expertise couldn’t hurt.”

9:03 p.m .: Heil also reveals: Scholz will announce Lambrecht’s successor on Tuesday.

9 p.m.: Louis Klamroth welcomes his guests. His first question is for Minister of Labor Heil. “Do you want the job?” Klamroth wants to know. As Labor Minister, he has big plans, he says. “I suspected this question,” says Heil. Klamroth concludes: “You do not exclude the office.”